❓ Question regarding the resignation of the Chief Scientist and the government's focus on biotechnology over traditional industries. The Minister defends the government's science and innovation strategy, highlighting investments in both traditional and emerging sectors.
AnsweredQoN 198Legislative Assembly
QuestionView source ↗
CHIEF SCIENTIST DR BRUCE HOBBS
(1) What are the reasons that Dr Bruce Hobbs has quit his position as Chief Scientist to the Labor government? (2) Will the minister concede that the greatest gains for the state will come from building on our existing strengths in the agriculture and mining industries, rather than focusing solely on biotechnology? Mr F.M. LOGAN
(1) What are the reasons that Dr Bruce Hobbs has quit his position as Chief Scientist to the Labor government? (2) Will the minister concede that the greatest gains for the state will come from building on our existing strengths in the agriculture and mining industries, rather than focusing solely on biotechnology? Mr F.M. LOGAN
AnswerView source ↗
(1)-(2) My first response is to acknowledge the work of Dr Hobbs and what he has done for the state over the past three years as the first Chief Scientist. I also acknowledge the work of Dr Hobbs in bringing the various disparate groups in science together through the Science Council. Everybody on both sides of politics will be aware that there are always demands on government for funds. It does not matter who is in government. Those demands come from a very wide section of science and technology. Dr Hobbs gave a very coherent direction to science by creating the Science Council. By giving direction to science he performed a superb series of actions on behalf of the state. He also had access to two sources of funding. The first was the Innovate 1 funding, which was available from 2001. That was $50 million. Innovate 2 funding represented a further $50 million, which was available from 2005. Through the Science Council a significant amount of money was poured into the traditional areas of research in Western Australia. An amount of $27 million was provided to the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation for the geoscience facility in Bentley. An amount of $20 million was provided to the Western Australian Energy Research Alliance in Bentley. Money was provided to the Interactive Virtual Environment supercomputing system in Bentley to look at geoscience. An amount of $25 million was provided for the WA Marine Science Institute. The state government is also investing in partnership with the Department of Agriculture through Murdoch University. There is further investment with the ChemCentre, with facilities being built at Curtin University. It is utter nonsense for the member to state that the government is ignoring the traditional areas of our economy in favour of research and innovation. Mr P.D. Omodei interjected. Mr F.M. LOGAN : I have just given the house the figures; that is exactly how much has been poured in. There is more when one considers the various government departments and services. In terms of Dr Hobbs’ resignation, he made it very clear to me and the Director General of the Department of Industry and Resources that he wishes to carry out further research. He wants to get back into the field of research. He is developing a paper, which he will give to Nature . He believes it will be his best work yet. The Carpenter government makes no apologies whatsoever for the direction that it is taking with science and innovation, and it will not back off from it. Dr Hobbs can have his opinion about where science and research are going. We are not backing off from where we are going. We are building on science and innovation, and we are looking beyond the boom. We are looking to diversify the economy and to grow the skills sets of the economy by creating a knowledge economy in Western Australia. We are concentrating on four areas, and we make no apologies for it: firstly, biotechnology; secondly, biofuels and renewable energy; thirdly, the information and communications technology industry; and, fourthly, the marine and defence industries. The reason we are doing that is that we have comparative and competitive advantages in these industries, and we will grow this economy by doing so. We make no apologies for that.
(2) Will the minister concede that the greatest gains for the state will come from building on our existing strengths in the agriculture and mining industries, rather than focusing solely on biotechnology? Mr F.M. LOGAN replied: (1)-(2) My first response is to acknowledge the work of Dr Hobbs and what he has done for the state over the past three years as the first Chief Scientist. I also acknowledge the work of Dr Hobbs in bringing the various disparate groups in science together through the Science Council. Everybody on both sides of politics will be aware that there are always demands on government for funds. It does not matter who is in government. Those demands come from a very wide section of science and technology. Dr Hobbs gave a very coherent direction to science by creating the Science Council. By giving direction to science he performed a superb series of actions on behalf of the state. He also had access to two sources of funding. The first was the Innovate 1 funding, which was available from 2001. That was $50 million. Innovate 2 funding represented a further $50 million, which was available from 2005. Through the Science Council a significant amount of money was poured into the traditional areas of research in Western Australia. An amount of $27 million was provided to the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation for the geoscience facility in Bentley. An amount of $20 million was provided to the Western Australian Energy Research Alliance in Bentley. Money was provided to the Interactive Virtual Environment supercomputing system in Bentley to look at geoscience. An amount of $25 million was provided for the WA Marine Science Institute. The state government is also investing in partnership with the Department of Agriculture through Murdoch University. There is further investment with the ChemCentre, with facilities being built at Curtin University. It is utter nonsense for the member to state that the government is ignoring the traditional areas of our economy in favour of research and innovation. Mr P.D. Omodei interjected. Mr F.M. LOGAN : I have just given the house the figures; that is exactly how much has been poured in. There is more when one considers the various government departments and services. In terms of Dr Hobbs’ resignation, he made it very clear to me and the Director General of the Department of Industry and Resources that he wishes to carry out further research. He wants to get back into the field of research. He is developing a paper, which he will give to Nature . He believes it will be his best work yet. The Carpenter government makes no apologies whatsoever for the direction that it is taking with science and innovation, and it will not back off from it. Dr Hobbs can have his opinion about where science and research are going. We are not backing off from where we are going. We are building on science and innovation, and we are looking beyond the boom. We are looking to diversify the economy and to grow the skills sets of the economy by creating a knowledge economy in Western Australia. We are concentrating on four areas, and we make no apologies for it: firstly, biotechnology; secondly, biofuels and renewable energy; thirdly, the information and communications technology industry; and, fourthly, the marine and defence industries. The reason we are doing that is that we have comparative and competitive advantages in these industries, and we will grow this economy by doing so. We make no apologies for that.
Mr F.M. LOGAN replied: (1)-(2) My first response is to acknowledge the work of Dr Hobbs and what he has done for the state over the past three years as the first Chief Scientist. I also acknowledge the work of Dr Hobbs in bringing the various disparate groups in science together through the Science Council. Everybody on both sides of politics will be aware that there are always demands on government for funds. It does not matter who is in government. Those demands come from a very wide section of science and technology. Dr Hobbs gave a very coherent direction to science by creating the Science Council. By giving direction to science he performed a superb series of actions on behalf of the state. He also had access to two sources of funding. The first was the Innovate 1 funding, which was available from 2001. That was $50 million. Innovate 2 funding represented a further $50 million, which was available from 2005. Through the Science Council a significant amount of money was poured into the traditional areas of research in Western Australia. An amount of $27 million was provided to the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation for the geoscience facility in Bentley. An amount of $20 million was provided to the Western Australian Energy Research Alliance in Bentley. Money was provided to the Interactive Virtual Environment supercomputing system in Bentley to look at geoscience. An amount of $25 million was provided for the WA Marine Science Institute. The state government is also investing in partnership with the Department of Agriculture through Murdoch University. There is further investment with the ChemCentre, with facilities being built at Curtin University. It is utter nonsense for the member to state that the government is ignoring the traditional areas of our economy in favour of research and innovation. Mr P.D. Omodei interjected. Mr F.M. LOGAN : I have just given the house the figures; that is exactly how much has been poured in. There is more when one considers the various government departments and services. In terms of Dr Hobbs’ resignation, he made it very clear to me and the Director General of the Department of Industry and Resources that he wishes to carry out further research. He wants to get back into the field of research. He is developing a paper, which he will give to Nature . He believes it will be his best work yet. The Carpenter government makes no apologies whatsoever for the direction that it is taking with science and innovation, and it will not back off from it. Dr Hobbs can have his opinion about where science and research are going. We are not backing off from where we are going. We are building on science and innovation, and we are looking beyond the boom. We are looking to diversify the economy and to grow the skills sets of the economy by creating a knowledge economy in Western Australia. We are concentrating on four areas, and we make no apologies for it: firstly, biotechnology; secondly, biofuels and renewable energy; thirdly, the information and communications technology industry; and, fourthly, the marine and defence industries. The reason we are doing that is that we have comparative and competitive advantages in these industries, and we will grow this economy by doing so. We make no apologies for that.
(1)-(2) My first response is to acknowledge the work of Dr Hobbs and what he has done for the state over the past three years as the first Chief Scientist. I also acknowledge the work of Dr Hobbs in bringing the various disparate groups in science together through the Science Council. Everybody on both sides of politics will be aware that there are always demands on government for funds. It does not matter who is in government. Those demands come from a very wide section of science and technology. Dr Hobbs gave a very coherent direction to science by creating the Science Council. By giving direction to science he performed a superb series of actions on behalf of the state. He also had access to two sources of funding. The first was the Innovate 1 funding, which was available from 2001. That was $50 million. Innovate 2 funding represented a further $50 million, which was available from 2005. Through the Science Council a significant amount of money was poured into the traditional areas of research in Western Australia. An amount of $27 million was provided to the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation for the geoscience facility in Bentley. An amount of $20 million was provided to the Western Australian Energy Research Alliance in Bentley. Money was provided to the Interactive Virtual Environment supercomputing system in Bentley to look at geoscience. An amount of $25 million was provided for the WA Marine Science Institute. The state government is also investing in partnership with the Department of Agriculture through Murdoch University. There is further investment with the ChemCentre, with facilities being built at Curtin University. It is utter nonsense for the member to state that the government is ignoring the traditional areas of our economy in favour of research and innovation. Mr P.D. Omodei interjected. Mr F.M. LOGAN : I have just given the house the figures; that is exactly how much has been poured in. There is more when one considers the various government departments and services. In terms of Dr Hobbs’ resignation, he made it very clear to me and the Director General of the Department of Industry and Resources that he wishes to carry out further research. He wants to get back into the field of research. He is developing a paper, which he will give to Nature . He believes it will be his best work yet. The Carpenter government makes no apologies whatsoever for the direction that it is taking with science and innovation, and it will not back off from it. Dr Hobbs can have his opinion about where science and research are going. We are not backing off from where we are going. We are building on science and innovation, and we are looking beyond the boom. We are looking to diversify the economy and to grow the skills sets of the economy by creating a knowledge economy in Western Australia. We are concentrating on four areas, and we make no apologies for it: firstly, biotechnology; secondly, biofuels and renewable energy; thirdly, the information and communications technology industry; and, fourthly, the marine and defence industries. The reason we are doing that is that we have comparative and competitive advantages in these industries, and we will grow this economy by doing so. We make no apologies for that.
Mr P.D. Omodei interjected. Mr F.M. LOGAN : I have just given the house the figures; that is exactly how much has been poured in. There is more when one considers the various government departments and services. In terms of Dr Hobbs’ resignation, he made it very clear to me and the Director General of the Department of Industry and Resources that he wishes to carry out further research. He wants to get back into the field of research. He is developing a paper, which he will give to Nature . He believes it will be his best work yet. The Carpenter government makes no apologies whatsoever for the direction that it is taking with science and innovation, and it will not back off from it. Dr Hobbs can have his opinion about where science and research are going. We are not backing off from where we are going. We are building on science and innovation, and we are looking beyond the boom. We are looking to diversify the economy and to grow the skills sets of the economy by creating a knowledge economy in Western Australia. We are concentrating on four areas, and we make no apologies for it: firstly, biotechnology; secondly, biofuels and renewable energy; thirdly, the information and communications technology industry; and, fourthly, the marine and defence industries. The reason we are doing that is that we have comparative and competitive advantages in these industries, and we will grow this economy by doing so. We make no apologies for that.
Mr F.M. LOGAN : I have just given the house the figures; that is exactly how much has been poured in. There is more when one considers the various government departments and services. In terms of Dr Hobbs’ resignation, he made it very clear to me and the Director General of the Department of Industry and Resources that he wishes to carry out further research. He wants to get back into the field of research. He is developing a paper, which he will give to Nature . He believes it will be his best work yet. The Carpenter government makes no apologies whatsoever for the direction that it is taking with science and innovation, and it will not back off from it. Dr Hobbs can have his opinion about where science and research are going. We are not backing off from where we are going. We are building on science and innovation, and we are looking beyond the boom. We are looking to diversify the economy and to grow the skills sets of the economy by creating a knowledge economy in Western Australia. We are concentrating on four areas, and we make no apologies for it: firstly, biotechnology; secondly, biofuels and renewable energy; thirdly, the information and communications technology industry; and, fourthly, the marine and defence industries. The reason we are doing that is that we have comparative and competitive advantages in these industries, and we will grow this economy by doing so. We make no apologies for that.
In terms of Dr Hobbs’ resignation, he made it very clear to me and the Director General of the Department of Industry and Resources that he wishes to carry out further research. He wants to get back into the field of research. He is developing a paper, which he will give to Nature . He believes it will be his best work yet. The Carpenter government makes no apologies whatsoever for the direction that it is taking with science and innovation, and it will not back off from it. Dr Hobbs can have his opinion about where science and research are going. We are not backing off from where we are going. We are building on science and innovation, and we are looking beyond the boom. We are looking to diversify the economy and to grow the skills sets of the economy by creating a knowledge economy in Western Australia. We are concentrating on four areas, and we make no apologies for it: firstly, biotechnology; secondly, biofuels and renewable energy; thirdly, the information and communications technology industry; and, fourthly, the marine and defence industries. The reason we are doing that is that we have comparative and competitive advantages in these industries, and we will grow this economy by doing so. We make no apologies for that.
The Carpenter government makes no apologies whatsoever for the direction that it is taking with science and innovation, and it will not back off from it. Dr Hobbs can have his opinion about where science and research are going. We are not backing off from where we are going. We are building on science and innovation, and we are looking beyond the boom. We are looking to diversify the economy and to grow the skills sets of the economy by creating a knowledge economy in Western Australia. We are concentrating on four areas, and we make no apologies for it: firstly, biotechnology; secondly, biofuels and renewable energy; thirdly, the information and communications technology industry; and, fourthly, the marine and defence industries. The reason we are doing that is that we have comparative and competitive advantages in these industries, and we will grow this economy by doing so. We make no apologies for that.
(2) Will the minister concede that the greatest gains for the state will come from building on our existing strengths in the agriculture and mining industries, rather than focusing solely on biotechnology? Mr F.M. LOGAN replied: (1)-(2) My first response is to acknowledge the work of Dr Hobbs and what he has done for the state over the past three years as the first Chief Scientist. I also acknowledge the work of Dr Hobbs in bringing the various disparate groups in science together through the Science Council. Everybody on both sides of politics will be aware that there are always demands on government for funds. It does not matter who is in government. Those demands come from a very wide section of science and technology. Dr Hobbs gave a very coherent direction to science by creating the Science Council. By giving direction to science he performed a superb series of actions on behalf of the state. He also had access to two sources of funding. The first was the Innovate 1 funding, which was available from 2001. That was $50 million. Innovate 2 funding represented a further $50 million, which was available from 2005. Through the Science Council a significant amount of money was poured into the traditional areas of research in Western Australia. An amount of $27 million was provided to the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation for the geoscience facility in Bentley. An amount of $20 million was provided to the Western Australian Energy Research Alliance in Bentley. Money was provided to the Interactive Virtual Environment supercomputing system in Bentley to look at geoscience. An amount of $25 million was provided for the WA Marine Science Institute. The state government is also investing in partnership with the Department of Agriculture through Murdoch University. There is further investment with the ChemCentre, with facilities being built at Curtin University. It is utter nonsense for the member to state that the government is ignoring the traditional areas of our economy in favour of research and innovation. Mr P.D. Omodei interjected. Mr F.M. LOGAN : I have just given the house the figures; that is exactly how much has been poured in. There is more when one considers the various government departments and services. In terms of Dr Hobbs’ resignation, he made it very clear to me and the Director General of the Department of Industry and Resources that he wishes to carry out further research. He wants to get back into the field of research. He is developing a paper, which he will give to Nature . He believes it will be his best work yet. The Carpenter government makes no apologies whatsoever for the direction that it is taking with science and innovation, and it will not back off from it. Dr Hobbs can have his opinion about where science and research are going. We are not backing off from where we are going. We are building on science and innovation, and we are looking beyond the boom. We are looking to diversify the economy and to grow the skills sets of the economy by creating a knowledge economy in Western Australia. We are concentrating on four areas, and we make no apologies for it: firstly, biotechnology; secondly, biofuels and renewable energy; thirdly, the information and communications technology industry; and, fourthly, the marine and defence industries. The reason we are doing that is that we have comparative and competitive advantages in these industries, and we will grow this economy by doing so. We make no apologies for that.
Mr F.M. LOGAN replied: (1)-(2) My first response is to acknowledge the work of Dr Hobbs and what he has done for the state over the past three years as the first Chief Scientist. I also acknowledge the work of Dr Hobbs in bringing the various disparate groups in science together through the Science Council. Everybody on both sides of politics will be aware that there are always demands on government for funds. It does not matter who is in government. Those demands come from a very wide section of science and technology. Dr Hobbs gave a very coherent direction to science by creating the Science Council. By giving direction to science he performed a superb series of actions on behalf of the state. He also had access to two sources of funding. The first was the Innovate 1 funding, which was available from 2001. That was $50 million. Innovate 2 funding represented a further $50 million, which was available from 2005. Through the Science Council a significant amount of money was poured into the traditional areas of research in Western Australia. An amount of $27 million was provided to the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation for the geoscience facility in Bentley. An amount of $20 million was provided to the Western Australian Energy Research Alliance in Bentley. Money was provided to the Interactive Virtual Environment supercomputing system in Bentley to look at geoscience. An amount of $25 million was provided for the WA Marine Science Institute. The state government is also investing in partnership with the Department of Agriculture through Murdoch University. There is further investment with the ChemCentre, with facilities being built at Curtin University. It is utter nonsense for the member to state that the government is ignoring the traditional areas of our economy in favour of research and innovation. Mr P.D. Omodei interjected. Mr F.M. LOGAN : I have just given the house the figures; that is exactly how much has been poured in. There is more when one considers the various government departments and services. In terms of Dr Hobbs’ resignation, he made it very clear to me and the Director General of the Department of Industry and Resources that he wishes to carry out further research. He wants to get back into the field of research. He is developing a paper, which he will give to Nature . He believes it will be his best work yet. The Carpenter government makes no apologies whatsoever for the direction that it is taking with science and innovation, and it will not back off from it. Dr Hobbs can have his opinion about where science and research are going. We are not backing off from where we are going. We are building on science and innovation, and we are looking beyond the boom. We are looking to diversify the economy and to grow the skills sets of the economy by creating a knowledge economy in Western Australia. We are concentrating on four areas, and we make no apologies for it: firstly, biotechnology; secondly, biofuels and renewable energy; thirdly, the information and communications technology industry; and, fourthly, the marine and defence industries. The reason we are doing that is that we have comparative and competitive advantages in these industries, and we will grow this economy by doing so. We make no apologies for that.
(1)-(2) My first response is to acknowledge the work of Dr Hobbs and what he has done for the state over the past three years as the first Chief Scientist. I also acknowledge the work of Dr Hobbs in bringing the various disparate groups in science together through the Science Council. Everybody on both sides of politics will be aware that there are always demands on government for funds. It does not matter who is in government. Those demands come from a very wide section of science and technology. Dr Hobbs gave a very coherent direction to science by creating the Science Council. By giving direction to science he performed a superb series of actions on behalf of the state. He also had access to two sources of funding. The first was the Innovate 1 funding, which was available from 2001. That was $50 million. Innovate 2 funding represented a further $50 million, which was available from 2005. Through the Science Council a significant amount of money was poured into the traditional areas of research in Western Australia. An amount of $27 million was provided to the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation for the geoscience facility in Bentley. An amount of $20 million was provided to the Western Australian Energy Research Alliance in Bentley. Money was provided to the Interactive Virtual Environment supercomputing system in Bentley to look at geoscience. An amount of $25 million was provided for the WA Marine Science Institute. The state government is also investing in partnership with the Department of Agriculture through Murdoch University. There is further investment with the ChemCentre, with facilities being built at Curtin University. It is utter nonsense for the member to state that the government is ignoring the traditional areas of our economy in favour of research and innovation. Mr P.D. Omodei interjected. Mr F.M. LOGAN : I have just given the house the figures; that is exactly how much has been poured in. There is more when one considers the various government departments and services. In terms of Dr Hobbs’ resignation, he made it very clear to me and the Director General of the Department of Industry and Resources that he wishes to carry out further research. He wants to get back into the field of research. He is developing a paper, which he will give to Nature . He believes it will be his best work yet. The Carpenter government makes no apologies whatsoever for the direction that it is taking with science and innovation, and it will not back off from it. Dr Hobbs can have his opinion about where science and research are going. We are not backing off from where we are going. We are building on science and innovation, and we are looking beyond the boom. We are looking to diversify the economy and to grow the skills sets of the economy by creating a knowledge economy in Western Australia. We are concentrating on four areas, and we make no apologies for it: firstly, biotechnology; secondly, biofuels and renewable energy; thirdly, the information and communications technology industry; and, fourthly, the marine and defence industries. The reason we are doing that is that we have comparative and competitive advantages in these industries, and we will grow this economy by doing so. We make no apologies for that.
Mr P.D. Omodei interjected. Mr F.M. LOGAN : I have just given the house the figures; that is exactly how much has been poured in. There is more when one considers the various government departments and services. In terms of Dr Hobbs’ resignation, he made it very clear to me and the Director General of the Department of Industry and Resources that he wishes to carry out further research. He wants to get back into the field of research. He is developing a paper, which he will give to Nature . He believes it will be his best work yet. The Carpenter government makes no apologies whatsoever for the direction that it is taking with science and innovation, and it will not back off from it. Dr Hobbs can have his opinion about where science and research are going. We are not backing off from where we are going. We are building on science and innovation, and we are looking beyond the boom. We are looking to diversify the economy and to grow the skills sets of the economy by creating a knowledge economy in Western Australia. We are concentrating on four areas, and we make no apologies for it: firstly, biotechnology; secondly, biofuels and renewable energy; thirdly, the information and communications technology industry; and, fourthly, the marine and defence industries. The reason we are doing that is that we have comparative and competitive advantages in these industries, and we will grow this economy by doing so. We make no apologies for that.
Mr F.M. LOGAN : I have just given the house the figures; that is exactly how much has been poured in. There is more when one considers the various government departments and services. In terms of Dr Hobbs’ resignation, he made it very clear to me and the Director General of the Department of Industry and Resources that he wishes to carry out further research. He wants to get back into the field of research. He is developing a paper, which he will give to Nature . He believes it will be his best work yet. The Carpenter government makes no apologies whatsoever for the direction that it is taking with science and innovation, and it will not back off from it. Dr Hobbs can have his opinion about where science and research are going. We are not backing off from where we are going. We are building on science and innovation, and we are looking beyond the boom. We are looking to diversify the economy and to grow the skills sets of the economy by creating a knowledge economy in Western Australia. We are concentrating on four areas, and we make no apologies for it: firstly, biotechnology; secondly, biofuels and renewable energy; thirdly, the information and communications technology industry; and, fourthly, the marine and defence industries. The reason we are doing that is that we have comparative and competitive advantages in these industries, and we will grow this economy by doing so. We make no apologies for that.
In terms of Dr Hobbs’ resignation, he made it very clear to me and the Director General of the Department of Industry and Resources that he wishes to carry out further research. He wants to get back into the field of research. He is developing a paper, which he will give to Nature . He believes it will be his best work yet. The Carpenter government makes no apologies whatsoever for the direction that it is taking with science and innovation, and it will not back off from it. Dr Hobbs can have his opinion about where science and research are going. We are not backing off from where we are going. We are building on science and innovation, and we are looking beyond the boom. We are looking to diversify the economy and to grow the skills sets of the economy by creating a knowledge economy in Western Australia. We are concentrating on four areas, and we make no apologies for it: firstly, biotechnology; secondly, biofuels and renewable energy; thirdly, the information and communications technology industry; and, fourthly, the marine and defence industries. The reason we are doing that is that we have comparative and competitive advantages in these industries, and we will grow this economy by doing so. We make no apologies for that.
The Carpenter government makes no apologies whatsoever for the direction that it is taking with science and innovation, and it will not back off from it. Dr Hobbs can have his opinion about where science and research are going. We are not backing off from where we are going. We are building on science and innovation, and we are looking beyond the boom. We are looking to diversify the economy and to grow the skills sets of the economy by creating a knowledge economy in Western Australia. We are concentrating on four areas, and we make no apologies for it: firstly, biotechnology; secondly, biofuels and renewable energy; thirdly, the information and communications technology industry; and, fourthly, the marine and defence industries. The reason we are doing that is that we have comparative and competitive advantages in these industries, and we will grow this economy by doing so. We make no apologies for that.
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