❓ Question regarding the use of private investigators in the public sector, prompted by the Leader of the Opposition's criticism. Premier defends the practice as standard and necessary for procedural fairness, highlighting Labor's past use of external investigators.
AnsweredQoN 262Legislative Assembly
QuestionView source ↗
PUBLIC
SECTOR — PRIVATE INVESTIGATORS
262. Mr C.D. HATTON to the Premier:
The Leader of the Opposition stated at the weekend that the
engagement of a private investigator was equivalent to the tactics of a police
state. With this in mind, could the Premier please outline to the house the use
of external providers to conduct investigations into allegations of suspected
breaches of discipline or misconduct in the public sector?
SECTOR — PRIVATE INVESTIGATORS
262. Mr C.D. HATTON to the Premier:
The Leader of the Opposition stated at the weekend that the
engagement of a private investigator was equivalent to the tactics of a police
state. With this in mind, could the Premier please outline to the house the use
of external providers to conduct investigations into allegations of suspected
breaches of discipline or misconduct in the public sector?
AnswerView source ↗
I thank the member for Balcatta for the question. Once again,
the Leader of the Opposition was over the top in his comments, and wrong.
Several members interjected.
Mr C.J. BARNETT :
Let us just listen, shall we. We had the —
Mr M. McGowan :
Targeting MPs.
Mr C.J. BARNETT :
We had the Leader of the Opposition talking about a police state. In my time in
Parliament, I can recall only one instance when the police were used. It was
under Labor, and the police made a raid on The
Sunday Times , at the direction of executive government, of which the Leader
of the Opposition was a member. That was a police state—a police raid
on The Sunday Times .
Several members interjected.
The SPEAKER :
Members!
Mr C.J. BARNETT :
It was entirely appropriate. That was a police state.
The use of investigators has been a long-term practice, and
is a practice common to jurisdictions across Australia. If there is a matter of
an investigation of the conduct, or perhaps misconduct, of a public servant,
and if it is not so serious as to go to the Corruption and Crime Commission, it
is handled by the Public Sector Commissioner. To ensure procedural fairness,
that investigator is usually someone drawn from outside, so that is fair to all
parties.
In the comments that the Leader of the Opposition made over
the weekend, he referred to a common-use agreement established in 2010. Can I
inform the Leader of the Opposition that that was exactly the same as a
common-use agreement put in place by the Labor government in 2005.
Mr M. McGowan :
Which one?
Mr C.J. BARNETT :
In 2005.
Mr M. McGowan : I
have it here. It is completely different. They are completely different, my
friend. I'll bet you haven't even looked at them.
Mr C.J. BARNETT :
He's getting a bit uptight here, I think—a bit nervous.
Several members interjected.
The SPEAKER : Members!
Mr C.J. BARNETT : I
am trying to answer the question, Mr Speaker.
Mr M. McGowan : Not
very well.
Mr C.J. BARNETT :
He is a bit sensitive. The Public Sector Commissioner —
Mr P. Papalia interjected.
The SPEAKER :
Member for Warnbro!
Mr C.J. BARNETT : The
Public Sector Commissioner has indeed stated publicly that the use of outside
consultants—these are people who are experienced in administration,
ethics, professional conduct and the like—is common and desirable, in
fairness to all parties, in the case of prospective misconduct. The Leader of
the Opposition was, of course, a minister himself. On the weekend he said that
he had no knowledge of these things—no knowledge at all; it was a
completely foreign concept to him. Yet he was a minister. I will take just one
portfolio: education. The member for Rockingham was the Minister for Education
and Training in 2006–07.
Mr M. McGowan :
Wrong.
Mr C.J. BARNETT :
During that time —
Several members interjected.
Mr C.J. BARNETT :
Okay; there were overlaps.
Mr J.R. Quigley interjected.
The SPEAKER :
Member for Butler!
Mr C.J. BARNETT :
In 2006–07, with a Labor government, the education department used
outside investigators 107 times in a single year—107 times—and
the Leader of the Opposition said he has no knowledge of it. For the record, in
2006–07, under a Labor minister, there were 107 —
The
SPEAKER : Member for Butler, I call you to order for the first time. Leader
of the Opposition, you are welcome to ask supplementary questions, but not to
speak when I am on my feet.
Mr C.J. BARNETT :
Compared with 107 engagements of outside investigators by the Department of
Education under Labor, in 2012–13—the most recent year of this
government—there was one engagement of an outside investigator in the
Department of Education. For the previous year, 2011–12, there was
none. That is a big difference; 107 in one year under Labor compared with one
over the last two years. The Leader of the Opposition claims that this is
outrageous police-state stuff, but it is fair to individuals under investigation
and it is longstanding practice. If it has ever been used excessively, it
certainly has not been under this government, but definitely under the previous
Labor government.
the Leader of the Opposition was over the top in his comments, and wrong.
Several members interjected.
Mr C.J. BARNETT :
Let us just listen, shall we. We had the —
Mr M. McGowan :
Targeting MPs.
Mr C.J. BARNETT :
We had the Leader of the Opposition talking about a police state. In my time in
Parliament, I can recall only one instance when the police were used. It was
under Labor, and the police made a raid on The
Sunday Times , at the direction of executive government, of which the Leader
of the Opposition was a member. That was a police state—a police raid
on The Sunday Times .
Several members interjected.
The SPEAKER :
Members!
Mr C.J. BARNETT :
It was entirely appropriate. That was a police state.
The use of investigators has been a long-term practice, and
is a practice common to jurisdictions across Australia. If there is a matter of
an investigation of the conduct, or perhaps misconduct, of a public servant,
and if it is not so serious as to go to the Corruption and Crime Commission, it
is handled by the Public Sector Commissioner. To ensure procedural fairness,
that investigator is usually someone drawn from outside, so that is fair to all
parties.
In the comments that the Leader of the Opposition made over
the weekend, he referred to a common-use agreement established in 2010. Can I
inform the Leader of the Opposition that that was exactly the same as a
common-use agreement put in place by the Labor government in 2005.
Mr M. McGowan :
Which one?
Mr C.J. BARNETT :
In 2005.
Mr M. McGowan : I
have it here. It is completely different. They are completely different, my
friend. I'll bet you haven't even looked at them.
Mr C.J. BARNETT :
He's getting a bit uptight here, I think—a bit nervous.
Several members interjected.
The SPEAKER : Members!
Mr C.J. BARNETT : I
am trying to answer the question, Mr Speaker.
Mr M. McGowan : Not
very well.
Mr C.J. BARNETT :
He is a bit sensitive. The Public Sector Commissioner —
Mr P. Papalia interjected.
The SPEAKER :
Member for Warnbro!
Mr C.J. BARNETT : The
Public Sector Commissioner has indeed stated publicly that the use of outside
consultants—these are people who are experienced in administration,
ethics, professional conduct and the like—is common and desirable, in
fairness to all parties, in the case of prospective misconduct. The Leader of
the Opposition was, of course, a minister himself. On the weekend he said that
he had no knowledge of these things—no knowledge at all; it was a
completely foreign concept to him. Yet he was a minister. I will take just one
portfolio: education. The member for Rockingham was the Minister for Education
and Training in 2006–07.
Mr M. McGowan :
Wrong.
Mr C.J. BARNETT :
During that time —
Several members interjected.
Mr C.J. BARNETT :
Okay; there were overlaps.
Mr J.R. Quigley interjected.
The SPEAKER :
Member for Butler!
Mr C.J. BARNETT :
In 2006–07, with a Labor government, the education department used
outside investigators 107 times in a single year—107 times—and
the Leader of the Opposition said he has no knowledge of it. For the record, in
2006–07, under a Labor minister, there were 107 —
The
SPEAKER : Member for Butler, I call you to order for the first time. Leader
of the Opposition, you are welcome to ask supplementary questions, but not to
speak when I am on my feet.
Mr C.J. BARNETT :
Compared with 107 engagements of outside investigators by the Department of
Education under Labor, in 2012–13—the most recent year of this
government—there was one engagement of an outside investigator in the
Department of Education. For the previous year, 2011–12, there was
none. That is a big difference; 107 in one year under Labor compared with one
over the last two years. The Leader of the Opposition claims that this is
outrageous police-state stuff, but it is fair to individuals under investigation
and it is longstanding practice. If it has ever been used excessively, it
certainly has not been under this government, but definitely under the previous
Labor government.
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